Episode 16: Karla & Michelle

In this episode, I’m joined by Karla and Michelle for a deeply meaningful conversation on Mother Circle facilitation, with a focus on supporting adoptive mothers.

Together, we explore how Mother Circle offers something different than traditional mental health or support spaces—moving away from pathologizing and toward community, normalization, and being deeply held in shared experience.

Karla and Michelle co-facilitate an adoption-specific Mother Circle, and in this conversation, they speak to the unique and often unspoken realities adoptive mothers navigate:

• The absence of a clear “threshold” into motherhood
• The weight of external expectations and quiet judgments
• The layered responsibility toward both their children and birth families
• The complexity of identity, belonging, and care

We also explore the five pillars of postpartum support—
nature, wise community, nourishing food, extended rest, and loving touch—
and how these pillars take on new meaning within adoptive motherhood.

This conversation gently challenges the idea that mothers are meant to do this alone, and instead invites us into a more communal, interdependent way of caring for ourselves and each other.

Mother Circle becomes a space where mothers don’t have to explain themselves—
where they can reconnect with their own mother lines, define their unique paths, and be supported in the fullness of their experience.

If you’re an adoptive mother, part of an adoption story, or simply curious about reimagining support in motherhood, this conversation offers a deeply human place to begin.

Learn more about the adoption-specific Mother Circle:
mothercircleadoption.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello, this is Sarah Newberry from the Woven Podcast. And I am really excited to talk with my two guests today, Carla and Michelle. And we are all mother circle facilitators. But if you don't know me by now, I am a somatic body worker, barefoot massage therapist, continuing education provider, and all things pregnancy and postpartum from massage to mother circle. We'll just say it like that. So welcome, Carla and Michelle. I'd love to hear from you if you'd like to introduce yourself for the listeners, and then we'll just get started.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Hello, I'm Carla Johnston, and I'm here in Durham, North Carolina. And I I uh I'm an Iurvate wellness coach, uh supporting mothers, most who are navigating life transitions, transitions of all kinds. And uh I have a special interest in supporting adoptive mothers because I am a mother through birth and adoption, and I am a mother for mother circle facilitator as well. So um all things mother, mothering women, um that's really where I am. I think the through line is usually embodiment. I'm really delighted to be here. Thanks, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

And I am Michelle Kennefick. I am in Connecticut, and um, I am professionally I am a licensed clinical social worker licensed in Connecticut and Vermont, and I own a group private practice where we really specialize in providing trauma treatment to adults. So we I um am a somatic experiencing practitioner and pretty steeped in that world. I've been an assistant um many times, uh kind of all over the country and uh even into Canada, uh, and then the Connecticut coordinator of the the uh SC training here in Connecticut. So pretty steeped in that, and then EMDR trains and a whole bunch of other things. So I have that as my professional background. I teach at a couple of different universities, like the University of Connecticut and Fordham and the MSW programs, um, and do a lot of workshops and teaching and other arenas. Um I that's kind of what I do professionally. And Carla and I are always really clear that we come with a certain orientation in terms of what we do professionally. And as we make our way into this arena, uh, we really want to make sure that we're distinguishing, you know, sort of what we do for me as a therapist, um, is really parked outside of the room when we come into mother circle. That mother circle is a really different experience and it's not about teaching and coaching and all of those things. Um, it's really about holding space for women who are mothering children uh that they have not, that they haven't birthed. And so, in whatever way that that form comes, usually adoption. But uh Carla and I are, you know, well aware that that women come to mothering in other ways as well. It can be grandmothering or stepmothering, other other different ways.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah. What a beautiful like collaboration that you guys have going on here, you know, between like Ayurvedic women's care and then like social work and trauma work. Like that's that's powerful, that's incredible. You know, if if you're okay with it, I'd love to talk more about what you said about like parking those professional things outside the door. Because I think and what we were kind of talking about offline with what blessing ways are, it's like and and like how we sometimes need these things modeled for us. I'm curious if you want to kind of go into a little bit about what makes Mother Circle in general different than like other group spaces, but then specifically what you guys are creating with like how mothering shows up in different ways than what maybe we traditionally think it is.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

But our first is yeah, I mean the I mean, the the obvious difference to me is that when you are in the field of mental health, everything is very pathologized, right? We we work with diagnoses, we bill insurance through, you know, what I would consider is kind of a medical model, even though most social workers chafe at that, right? We work really hard to not be associated or work underneath kind of that umbrella. Um and so this allows an opportunity to have the opposite where we're really normalizing. And um yeah, I even want to say like decolonizing is another word that comes up for me. Like this idea, right, that that like the fourth trimester that we know from Kimberly and Johnson, right? Um it's not attended to. It's not attended to generally. And and so we've identified one of the things that was so like striking, I guess is the word, uh, when Kimberly was talking about postpartum and how it's synonymous with depression and anxiety, right? It's like we it's like a foregone conclusion. And you know, Carla and I talk a lot about the five pillars, which I'm gonna, you know, pause and let her pick up on that. We we we pathologize the experience of pregnancy and postpartum. And I I really hope that all of the mothers, you know, mother circle mother's circle facilitators around the world are really working to dismantle that and to really bring this in this education and awareness to the foreground and to stop pathologizing and stop making this a mental health issue, that it's a community issue and we need to hold mothers.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Absolutely. I, you know, just saying that, I remember, you know, in my first mothering experience, thinking like almost like postpartum anxiety depression was like this thing that would just like hit randomly or something, you know, where I was like, am I gonna catch it? Am I gonna catch the depression or something? And it's like wait a s then, whenever I started to really study this and realize like you said it so perfectly, this is a community issue. This is a community issue.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, it's a non-community issue. That's the whole point of mother's circle, right? It's like we're trying to we're trying to come back to right. Yeah.

unknown 6:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

And and I mean, I I'm a postpartum doula and I did a postpartum doula training with innate traditions. And even some of the postpartum doulas that I know around here don't understand that very fundamental piece. It's very much like, oh, I'll hold a baby while you take a nap, or I'll um, you know, do your laundry in this very like utility type care. And it's like we're still missing the point that it's that community piece coming together to hold, to um yeah, to be held. What a what a gift that is, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yeah, I think the the mothers that Michelle and I are working with in the adoption circles, these are moms who have they probably have a team of practitioners for mostly their kids, maybe for themselves. Um, and there's a lot that they've been doing um in mothering to just really help their child or children be well supported physically, mentally, emotionally. Most are understanding um the nature of separation um for kids, and um many have probably gone through some sort of trauma-informed parenting workshop, class. Right. And and I think what the the story of Michelle and I meeting is we both went through mother circle and the facilitatorship um training separately, and we were connected through Jessica Conley, who is one of the facilitators of that training. And it was just like instantly, like we just connected, and it was so many pieces that the the mother circle itself held us. I mean, I also it held me. I was in it, I think five times before I became a facilitator, and I just kept going around. I'm a mom through birth and adoption through three daughter to three daughters. At the time, I was also my mom was navigating uh we were navigating Alzheimer's and a number of other life transitions happening. So that space was holding more than just me as a mother. And because I think when we are mothering, we're also doing everything else. So there's this sense of like sometimes feeling like being pulled into these directions or even like underwater while trying to hold up our kids. And for adoptive moms in particular, there's a lot of layers of complexity of mothering children that you you didn't birth. And the external world and the experts, um, very valuable. I think you know, Michelle could speak to this more, but what I've seen in the last, you know, 15, 16 years of mothering through adoption is the resources are so much um more available in therapy and really looking at, you know, when we're talking, because it's always child-centric, right? And it and that's really good that we're getting the resources for our kids. But how are the mothers being supported? And when the mothers are being told, you know, like you need to take care of yourself and you know, you need to regulate yourself so that you can model this for your kids and co-regulate for the kids. But meanwhile, going through the transition of motherhood, um, no matter how you become a mother, this is the piece that we speak to. There, everything changes physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, relationally, sexually. Every there, it's like there's no area of our lives that doesn't go through some sort of transition, but that transition isn't really marked. And that's where sometimes, you know, our experiences, psychology doesn't necessarily meet that, and the medical world doesn't necessarily meet that. But when women come together, this is the oldest code, like women circling. I was just saying before we hit record, I'm I'm in a I'm I'm sandwiched between. Um last night I had a bunch of mothers here and their kids, and we're all friends, and we live in different places now, and it was just such a beautiful space to be with other mothers, and that feel like you have to, you know. I don't know. Like it in the mother circles for adoption, what we say is that we don't have to explain. Mothers get to show up, and we all understand that there are layers of complexity to this, but we we also understand that we're each unique and each adoption is unique, and each child is unique, and each mother is unique. So there are definitely going to be differences, but there are these common threads. So when we're we're uh holding the space for just adoptive moms, there's a different kind of coming into the circle and just being. And we we are really clear at, you know, this isn't a space for coaching, this isn't a space for therapy, this is not a parenting group. No, we're not giving you parenting tips. Like this is a space to be held. Um and the curriculum, as we all know, of Mother Circle, just it's really strong. It's a really strong container that, you know, when Michelle and I first got together, we wondered should we be changing anything in here? Does it need to be different? But we actually use the same container that all the mother circles around the world use. And within that, though, our conversations look a little different and some of our reflection questions might look different. It's a powerful space that I think is just so unique. Um unique to anything that's been existing for a while, but then when you're in it, I mean, so many mothers say, and my experience was it felt like a remembering, like, why? Why are we doing this? Like, when did this when did we lose this? And the you know, it does take, you know, time and space and facilitators, but it feels like when we're there, like the circle itself, just gathering, um, has its own magic.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah, I think that's the medicine. And that's the medicine. It's the and it is this really unique space. And it's hard as you were talking, Carla, I was listening to you and I was thinking, like, what are those threads? Like, what are they? It's it's almost it's hard to name. It's just this sort of unspoken knowing, right? It's in it's that sort of the deepest level of attunement, right? That's we talk about this an attachment, right? That attunement between a mother and a child. And that's kind of what shows up in these circles. And um, you know, for me, going through mother's circle, it was really powerful. Um, and then there were pieces of it that didn't resonate at the outset. And I say this all the time when Carl and I talk about it. Um, so I went through it twice and I would, you know, find myself driving down the road, and two or three weeks later I would like sort of be struck by, oh my gosh, how did I miss that? It's so obvious to me now. Um, and yet there were pieces of it that still didn't really land because I am a mother through stepmothering and through uh adoption, fostering to adopt, um well, fostering that then turned into an adoption. Um and so there there are those layers, but there it's almost hard to articulate the knowing, the attunement that happens in that space with other women that have come to mothering in in a similar way.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

I, you know, I'm I'm listening to you both and I'm thinking of the challenges that we struggle with with mother circle in general. Like we were talking about modeling, like see like letting mothers and women see that there is power in gathering, but then and and we know that, right? We know that when we go to like support groups or things like that, we feel seen and held and heard. And yet I still see people like avoiding it or like you know, like they're like, What am what actually am I getting out of this? And it's like, well, there's a myriad of things that you could possibly get out of it, but I also can't tell you exactly what you're going to get out of it, you know. But the possibility of being seen, held, and heard could be enough, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

I think that's a huge piece of it, just being seen, held, and heard. And, you know, I think for all mothers, um, and and I speak from lived experiences, the mom through birth and adoption, but also working with so many women in various ways over the years, is that threshold isn't marked, you know, in general for most mothers. But then for an adoptive mom who again, like the like one of the things we even talk about, like so the there's three stages, right, uh, to a rite of passage. And there would be the separation and then the transition and then the integration. And we're so lacking in integration. But even so then for for those of us who are mothering through adoption, what is that transition? Is it the moment we decided to adopt? Is it the moment we received a referral? Is it the moment some might have met their child for the first time? Is it the moment if if they traveled within the United States or elsewhere? Is it the first time everybody came together in the whole family if they have other children? Like, is it the first time, like there are a million moments in there that might have been the moment of be, you know, the birth moment of becoming mother. And so we actually use the language of becoming mother in a lot of our workshops in and look at that whole that whole window of time and and let each mother sort of claim that for herself. Um because it is those are some of the differences. Like there's there's just different, there are there are definitely um so many overlaps and so many things that feel universal to all mothering. But then within the adoptive mother journey, there there are a lot of nuances. And I think this is where, you know, and and when we have these conversations in circles, someone would be like, yeah, I don't like a baby shower, I never had that, you know. And but who how what does that look like? You know, and so people did, you know. I actually did have we had a shower um at the time that where people brought gifts, but it it's different, like and as we're stepping in to all those unknowns, the people around in the community um also sometimes just don't really know. Um but it's beyond a baby shower, right? It's like it's like how is the mother being supported in that transition? And and I think what we probably all might agree with in mother circle is that, you know, ideally an intergenerational circle, like having a village, this is where it happens. Women who are ahead of you on the journey, and like we're all in different places, and everybody brings wisdom into that circle, right? Like there, yes, there's there's medicine and wisdom in the circle itself, but every woman who comes, we trust that she's coming with wisdom and she's coming with her stories and she's coming with something, and it just it becomes so reciprocal in the process.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah, there are a lot of a lot of pieces that are layered with complexity through that. One of the things that I think about, you know, a lot of uh women that were in the mother circle that, you know, when I went through it, when we shared the story of Anana, they, you know, you know, really saw that through the lens of uh delivery, labor and delivery. And I didn't have that experience, and so it felt really inaccessible to me. And this is one of the examples where I was driving around two weeks later and I thought, oh my god, like my labor and delivery was two and a half years of not knowing the outcome of what was to be, right? So there were you know little things along the way, um but but that it's not that the labor and delivery isn't there, it just looks really different, right? And so, and then I think about the five pillars, right? So I was fostering and I my husband and I were self-employed, there was no maternity leave. Even if I worked for an agency, you don't get maternity leave for fostering. And so I had a three-day-old baby dropped off on a Thursday night at five o'clock. Here you go. I had taken eight weeks of classes to get licensed as a foster parent, right? It's a very different lens. And when you go into it that way, even my we didn't adoption was not on the table at the beginning. My job was to facilitate reunification, right? So the whole lens is very different, right? And it's different. I mean, that's just my experience. It's different. You could talk to a hundred other people who went through foster adoption, and every single story is different and unique. And you can talk about domestic adoption or international adoption, it's so different. Um, and then fast forward to the five pillars, and I think I I don't even know about the five pillars, first of all. Can you name the five pillars?

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Because maybe everybody watching doesn't know.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

I I can. Um, so connecting with nature, um community of wise women. Um, what else do we have? Nourishing food. What else? There's five. Oh, yeah. So wait, the one I can't remember. Oh, right. Seven periods of rest. I just started to move into that phase, and my son is seven. We didn't sleep through the night for six years. Yeah, and what is our last one? Is um community wise women, nourishing food, connecting with nature. Did we say that one? Rest and what are we missing?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Why do we not know this?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Where did you start?

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Rest, nourishing food, nature, um wise women. Community wise women. It's we're cracking ourselves up here. I think I'm saying in the moment I'm stuck on rest because as Michelle's talking, I'm thinking that is that's a really key piece that for all mothers. But you know, my first whole year, we grew our family from we two two children entered our home. They were one and a half and three and a half. And um for the first year, one was sleeping with her year and a half, her eyes were half open, right? Just on high alert, she's three and a half. And then my youngest um was getting good sleep, but she was waking at 4 15. First bird song awake. And so, and then in the night, you know, and then I also had a six year old. And and so the the I have extra extra kids in my house right now as part of this reunion, and they clearly just forgot. Um, but there was just so much going on that made sleepy. Really, really challenging. And I think that's a piece that we're finding with most of the mothers that come. I that happens with a lot of mothers, with the mothers who are coming to mother's circle. Um and I guess what I want to say is like what one of the things that we go through in Mother's Circle is just understanding like the cycles of life and the seasons of life and motherhood, that there's always going to be invitations for us to step into that again to um consider it's never too late. Like that, like there's these circles and these cycles come around that just keep inviting us into okay, what would it be like if we stepped into these to to deep, you know, or or better or more, you know, however however you want to say it, like maybe it's not gonna all happen at once, but like leaning into how might nourishing sleep happen. And I will say, like, I slept great last night and I got together with a bunch of women last night. When we're together in mother circle, like we're we are, it's a totally different kind of self-care, is what we might say, right? It's a way of nurturing that can support better sleep, that where we can talk about the things that we want to do or know might be helpful to us that we didn't get, but we instead of pushing, we're just it it begins to unfold. There's a deep nourishment that happens in the circle.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

So the fifth one is loving touch.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

How do we I would say there was a touch component that we're missing here.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

How do we forget that really key once you feel you know, the phrase is sometimes just touched out, but and in adoption, we may have kids who just are really, you know, um clinging, and we may have kids who are very avoidant and just you know, touch is not there at all. And how to navigate that, you know, in our relationship first with ourselves and then with partners and with our kids, and but you know, even as women, so our most of our circles, because Michelle's in Connecticut and I'm down here are are online, but there are so many circles all around, and I occasionally lead them locally too, where we're together in the physical space. But we do talk about self-massage, we we look at other ways, but you know, ideally in that postpartum or that post-mothering time, mothers would be gathering and there would be care and there would be ways that we were all supporting each other to because when mothers are supported, rested, well-nourished, receiving loving touch, having a community wise wise women and out in nature, like these are things that nourish, and then that actually helps our children and our communities thrive too when mothers are supported.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

I was I want to go back to your question though, Sarah, which was why why why don't people block to these opportunities, right? Like, right? And I think it's really in part because I think we're so child focused. And I think particularly, I mean, I think this is again one of these universal themes where I think biologically, I think culturally, we are very child-focused, and in many ways that's great, but we it's like the train without the caboost, right? The mom has been left at the train station, and the kids are getting all the care, and especially in adoption, like Carla said. I mean, we're really good for the most part at ferreting out like all the experts, all the providers. Um and yet there is not that place for mothers just to be held. Like Carla said, there's the parent coaching models, and I'm a facilitator of you know, circle security. It's a parenting curriculum focused on attachment, right? And that's all great, but I think it's almost like I'm not sure people know it exists. I'm not sure people feel like they're allowed, and I don't mean like in a permission sort of way, but like, am I deserving? Like if if I if I lean into caring for myself, am I am I not doing something for my child? Like I think it becomes really complex, and I don't think that's specific to adoption. I think that's I think that's all mothering, and we've really lost um it it's painted as um like there's a it's almost like there's a flavor of being self-involved or selfish that if you're trying to tend to your own needs, that like that's not okay. And I mean, I say this all the time, it's so cliche, but you know, if we listen to the flight attendants, they say put your own oxygen mask on first. If you don't do that, then you're unconscious and you can't help anyone else. If you put it on first, you're available to support other people. And we have to get back to that kind of orientation that we have to fill our cup.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I I think it also goes back to that word that you said of decolonization, because we have to like unravel the things that were given to us without knowing. And a lot of that is that hyper-individual, I mean, to throw about around a bunch of buzzwords, right? Like hyperindividualism, uh, yeah, and I know the oxygen mask is the first thing I thought of as well. And it's but it's also like, and I see this in my massage practice. Sometimes the only time I will see someone is when they are pregnant, because that's when they have permission to care for themselves because they're caring for the baby. And and it's like selfless then. Well, I'm caring for myself because I'm caring for my baby, and it's like, but why wouldn't you also care for you? Like, do you know? It's like, yeah, what when did and and I also think about this in like reparenting situations where it's like, what would you want for your child? Would you want your child to feel like they can only take care of someone else? Or would you want your child to feel like they can take care of themselves? Because when I'm thinking about my children, I don't want them to be to feel burdened by only taking care of someone else. And and so when you when you look at it like that from that position, you're like, sign me up for all things.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Yeah. It's still so hard though. It is. Like I even find myself going through cycles of that. And I hold like outside of mother circle, like I I hold space for a lot of you know, self-care, which I I often don't even like calling it self-care because it just feels like roll the eyes now, right? But we're talking about something different. Like the community care is a part of it. And like, okay, what if we all put our masks on? We we're like, we're doing this together rather than the I have to do this on my own over here. Like, I think that's the difference. Like, even in that message of you have to put your own oxygen mask on first, what is misinterpreted or implied is like go go figure this out, go do it on your own so that you can then show up for your kids and everybody else. And it's like where, you know, I grew up in a village of 200 people. You know, it wasn't all rosy, but gosh, like the way people cared for each other, right? And that doesn't really exist anymore. So now we become mothers, and then even if you realize I I need like I want community, I need community, I'm feeling really alone and isolated. It's like we've got to create the community, find the energy to create the community. Um, but yeah, so I always with the oxygen mask, I always feel a little bit in between with that. Like, yes, I know that. And it also does, it's so much easier when there are others doing that at the same time. And I think that might be a part of what Mother Circle is. It's giving permission to do that and and having conversations about why is it so hard? Like to get into the circle to then begin having the conversations like, why, yeah, why, why is this so hard? And then we begin to feel it and experience it.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

I yeah, I also think there's this messaging, I don't know, out there in the world somewhere that you know, if if this mothering thing doesn't come super easy to you, something is defect in you. And I think I see this a lot, um, where maybe someone has one child or they maybe they adopt one child, and then it's like, oh, this is really, really hard, like super duper hard. And I I thought that it would be more intuitive or something. Like I I thought that I would figure this out because all you need is love, right? Like all you need is just to love this child and it'll all work out. And it's like we all, as wise women, right, know that that's not how that works. But if only if only that were true. If only that were true. And it's like if we had a circle of women going, yeah, uh, it's really hard, and there's nothing wrong with you because of how hard it is, maybe that person would have more than one child. More, maybe that person would move towards adoption because I know from as someone who hasn't adopted someone, but I am a stepmom. Adoption sounds really, really hard. Really, really hard. And I, you know, I think, would I would I want to do that? I mean, just knowing me, I'm like a big yes, I've always felt that that way, but I also feel like it unless we speak to that piece of like no matter what the situation is, it's going to be hard, but there's that doesn't mean something's broken or wrong with you. I think things would be very different.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah, and I think there's a layer in that, and this is made this is I there are a couple of threads that are coming through here that um were kind of like what Carla was talking about earlier, that there's kind of this unspoken understanding that happens in these circles, and this is one of them that all that you just said is so true, right? You are supposed to take to mothering like a duck to water, and it should just flow, and you should just be blessed, and you know, flowers and birds and everything is you know, unicorns and butterflies, and that's how it is, right? And then you add in adoption, you thought this out, you chose the path, so there's even less room to say, I'm tired, this is hard, it's not what I thought it was gonna be, right? I don't I don't know, right? You you have this sort of added layer of this intricacy or this complexity that that you you made this decision consciously, right? Many people choose to have children consciously, obviously. Um there's an added layer when you choose to parent a child born from another woman's womb, right? And I think you just be grateful that you had this opportunity to be a mom.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah, oh, that's like all shamey feeling.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Like there would be great a lot of layers of shame that I think are are are projected and also taken on in becoming a mother through adoption. And those are those are old. I mean, they're old and they are rooted in a lot of systems and structures. And um I, you know, another layer that I felt that I've shared with other mothers who also resonate is just I felt like the stakes are higher. Like I'm mothering a child that was born from another mother, and um out in the adoption world, everybody well, even beyond pretty much everybody has a people like to have their opinions about adoption. And a lot of that, there's a lot of projections and expectations and conclusions and judgments that exist. So it's like weeding through all of those to then, you know, know who I am as a mother, but then there's this piece too. Like I like I in and mothering through birth and adoption, there were just added layers. Like I felt like it was a greater responsibility because I am mothering someone else's child. And so I don't have time to take care of me. I don't have, you know, like I like all of my resources should be going here or supporting the family, or you know, like all of so and that, you know, the more I'm in it, like the more I began to realize, like, okay, wait, that's not mine, you know, or like what what again coming back to like what if all mothers, like if we as all mothers are taking care of ourselves, and that isn't alone and isolated on my own, it is this communal aspect that's missing and where we just get to come and the intergenerational aspect of it of sharing different parts of the journey and understanding and different perspectives and and not having to explain everything. But again, you said before, Sarah, being seen and held and heard. It's that whole witnessing that I think most mothers, however you become a mother, just never had through a rite of passage. It's just like it wasn't really marked, it wasn't really held, there wasn't a lot of space. And that to me just feels really key.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Well, and you just said something that brought that brought some thoughts of like resourcing. Like you you were saying you felt like all of your resources should go to this, and yet we haven't said how the systems at play don't even leave you resource anyway. So you're already starting with like a deficit of resources, and then you're pressure putting pressure on yourself, or the systems are putting pressure on you to like only move their limited resources over this direction. It's like we're set, we're setting up to not do well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Yeah, I think there's another piece too that in terms of resource depletion, there's another piece that you know that that Carla was you know listing all of these, right, all of these um thoughts and opinions about adoption. There are also a lot of assumptions that come into play about how and why we became adoptive mothers. And so we hold that, we hold the needs of our children, and many of us also hold the birth family in lots of different ways. Like I am in fairly regular contact with my son's birth mom and um and have contact with the birth father. And I and he and he has a sibling that was adopted by another family that we are in touch with all the time and actually see each other very frequently. Um, so those two boys have a very strong relationship. And so I describe like we are this wild, weird, extended family. And I do feel this added responsibility, not just to get him over the threshold and to, and he's a boy, right? So let's just he's a boy, so my goals have shifted. If I can get him over the threshold to 18 and he's alive, that's a goal. Um but then there's this added layer of responsibility that that Carla touched on. And then I also feel like I hold that birth family, right? And I hold them in the way that like I get sort of very mama bear energy about this. Like, don't don't start making assumptions about who they are and what happened here because what you're thinking is not true, right? And so don't put that on them, right? And I get like, you know, very wry about it. Um it's just another layer that we hold. And I think when we're in that space, and that's just my experience. This isn't to say that even in the world of adoption and and mothering children that we have in birth, that again, every you know, experience is totally unique. Um, and there are a lot of circumstances where, you know, in in whatever whether it's foster adoption or whatever, where there is no contact, and there's good reasons for that, right? So those things all exist, and we still hold, we still hold those family members. We may not have contact with them, but they are they are there in the energy field, right? Um, and it matters to the children. Right.

unknown 38:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

I just want to affirm that. Yeah. Like everybody, every mother is really holding something more in some way, and it looks really different. And when I was going through Mother's Circle, we actually were unified with my kids' birth family, and we weren't from Ethiopia. We weren't able to travel, but now I'm in communication with them every week. And um, there's just been a big wedding happening over there and and just back and forth. And but another piece within that that we all navigate is like what Michelle's doing it, every everyone, every mother is doing it in her own way. How are we creating the space for them to define what their own relationship is within these families? Like, and that's all, you know, well, well, well, our identity is changing through motherhood, and it's not really marked. We usually get there's going to be a lot of identity issues for our kids, but we don't actually know what that is. I mean, and there's a lot of research that might predict, and there's a lot of adult adeptees that will share their experience, and so thankful for that. But again, every child is different and every mother is different.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

You know what's also been interesting during this conversation, I have a really close friend right now who is a surrogate. And it's interesting how the things that she's talking about are also kind of like overlapping in what you're what you all are sharing too. Like she's um birthing the baby, she's housing the child. I don't know, I don't know the right language, but growing the eyeballs. Yeah, she's growing the eyeballs, right? And but she's in close conversation with like the mother, and I'm gonna be helping her um with postpartum stuff, but it's just it's like really kind of cool to see how that there's some weaving together of that world too. And a lot of the things that um you're talking about Michelle about she's experienced of like people saying um making all kinds of assumptions about why that why the the mother can't have children, and like there's just a a lot of assumptions flying around about why she's even providing her womb. And like it's it's just like when do we get to a point in life when we can kind of like drop some of those assumptions so that we can actually hear what's happening, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

We can do that when we come into mother circle.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

I was just that's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

Yeah, like absolutely that's the space.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

And we're naming the things that actually um mother circle holds the space for and and like the ancestral piece. Like one of the things that we do is we um our our circle, you know, all mother circles will introduce through the mother line. And for us, we make a lot of space for what that is. And and in an eight-week period, it may it may sound different every time a mother introduces herself into the circle as she is moving through the integration, the the integration of her own mother line, of uh her her children and and their lines. And so all of these pieces start to come in. Like what does that mean and how we name even even the women for some who maybe didn't have a strong relationship with their mother, who is that who mothered them? And how do we the the voice becomes their own? Like they get to define, we get to define our our own way of coming into motherhood, our own motherhood. You know, we finish mother circle with you know legacy. Um, and in between, there's so many other places where we're we're touching on these pieces that I don't think any other space does. But it does feel very ancient and old, like we're remembering it when we're in there. It um like our grandmothers, grandmothers, grandmothers were doing this, and now we're just trying to bring it back. And in a circle for adoption, we just have other layers to look at. And the fascinating thing is as I was going through mother circle before training to be a facilitator, I was digging more into my family line. And I discovered there was a lot of adoption, officially and unofficially, where mothers were raising other children and sometimes not children they knew. Like it was, you know, it was it was a really interesting piece to uncover. And um so just having the space to do this in Mother Circle is really valuable.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

I I just something is coming forward that I feel like I want to share in the space. Okay. Something that I've seen uh with hosting Mother Circle is that through what you're talking about, they start to realize that you know, as you introduce yourself every week, that changes a little bit, right? Like who mothered you? And there starts to be this like like contraction that happens where it's like, well, of course I have this birth mother, but then when we invite like who else mothered you, it's like, oh, my best friend down the street's mom really did a big big piece in mothering me. You know, whatever, some story. And um you you see this like uh evolution of like learning the great grandma, the great great grandma, you know, the line, and you start to see how like there's more than just one mother that really contributed to who you are, and I could I could see how like a circle for adopted mothers specifically could really allow in like look at how you're contributing to this child's life without being the birth mother, but being the mother. Do you know? It's like that that um quote by Clarissa uh at the end where she says, like, um, I don't remember the exact if you're lucky enough to have many mothers, something like that, right? Yeah, yeah, that one. And and that felt so nourishing to me, but I know that has always been profound in every circle that I've that I've held because we put so much pressure on mothers to be like perfect and to be the everything. But when we can release that pressure a little bit and realize that we have we have many mothers who mother us, and that when you have many mothers, you're very lucky. It's like that allows me, that allows me as a mother to let my kids go to my friends so I can take a break. It allows me to like remember that my children need many mothers, not just me, and that that truly is a gift. I could just see how that's like goes around for both parties. It's like you get to bring your children to other mothers, but then it's also like I am a mother for other people's children that are not mine. That's I mean, that's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Yeah. Mother Circle really um it is so dear to me. I mean, it held me um through many years of a lot of transitions, and I feel lucky enough that I, you know, I we have women who've repeated our circles. I repeated Mother Circle many times because every time moving through it, like we're sure we walk away with the curriculum and we have this, but it it really isn't intended, like the local circles are beautiful when they begin to expand and we're looking at how do we continu have a con, you know, some kind of continuation. But there's also the invitation to how does each mother who comes into this circle who's integrating these parts of a motherhood and finding her voice and um looking at her line and defining her legacy, then where does that move into the community? Right? Where does that move uniquely through them into other relationships?

SPEAKER_00 47:01

And that can look a million different ways, but um yeah, I'll just one of the ways that I think about that, and this might sound a little woo-woo, but um we welcome the woo here.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

We love the woo.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Um, I think about that when we are introducing ourselves and we name, right? Some of us name the this is uh definitely not an expectation, it sort of comes forward, I think, through the weeks and through the experience as as those identities shift and land differently. Um but when I when I introduce my son's birth mother, right? I really hold her in that space because I I know I mean I do trauma work in my in my professional life, right? Part of why I do that is because I know when something traumatic happens, it's like throwing a rock into a pond, into a still pond, and there are all those ripples. Healing is the same way when we start to heal trauma, when we start to heal disconnection, it's another rock in the pond. And the ripples are profound. And I just know as we all come to mother's circles and we are healing through the lines, right? Then we are changing women and we are changing communities and we are changing culture. And so I know every time I name her in that circle, I mean, I don't say, did you feel that on Monday? Right. But I know energetically, right, there's healing that's happening vibrationally or energetically, however you want to look at it, right? And that there will come a point in time where that becomes a felt experience. I I know it just happened. I have been bringing things um to a consignment shop and then they reject all these things because I think they're only allowed. Like if you bring in a box of 30, they can take eight, or like there's some formula that they have because I literally have brought things in with tags and they're like stained and whatever, and I'm like, it has tags. And then I was bringing them to Goodwill, and then I it occurred to me that she has had two more children since um our situation happened. And I thought, why am I not packing these up and giving them to I'd rather her have them, right? So I just shipped the first box to her, and we have this really lovely exchange afterwards. It mattered, there's a connection. Now she knows whenever she puts on the little, you know, dinosaur hat, right, on her son, that that was our son, it was his hat, right? There's a there's a I don't know, train like a transmission, right? That happens and it matters, right? We're really, I mean, it sounds corny and cliche to say, but we are really changing, right? We are building mother culture every single time we do this, every time we have these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Yeah. You know, that reminds me of um my mom saved everything from whenever I was a child, but my mom died whenever um my oldest son was two. So everything she had was like girl stuff because I was the only child she had. And but then I had a daughter, and so my dad brought over all this box of like baby clothes, and I'm going through it and I'm like, this doesn't mean anything to me, you know, because I I was a baby, but I know that it meant so much to my mom that she like kept it, and so I totally relate with that like transmission that you're talking about. Because um, I mean, my mom like saved my training, like potty training underwear, and I've been using it for my daughter, and I'm like, this is weird, but yeah, but it's it's there, and it's like there's something kind of magical about it. Yeah. Every time I've used like a blanket or like some other clothes that she saved or whatever, it's always like, wow, this was mine. It's interesting. It's it's very there's an energy exchange to it for sure. Yeah. All right, my friends. This has been really lovely. Um, it's been I really appreciate sharing what you have about Mother Circle, but also about the specifics of adoption. I think uh it just feels really good that you guys are creating a space for this. Um if you could you tell anybody who's listening where they could maybe go to connect with the adoption mother circle specifically.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Yes, mothercircleadoption.com. That's where you'll find um everything. And we do have a beautiful um we have a guide, um, a little PDF guide that we've created if people want to just dabble in the work. We have our next Mother Circle will be live in the fall, um, online. And in between, um we run workshops and events and um through and then separately through our work lives. Sometimes we are in other places where we introduce this work. But Mother Circle Adoption uh is gonna be the best.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Great. Is do you have any social media handles, either one of you or not really at this point? I mean that's fine. No more nobody wants to be on social media, okay. Like, can we just say that nobody wants to be there?

SPEAKER_02 52:29

But we are making more relate, we're we're creating more relationships with um a lot of the the providers to adopt and we're we're and we know that adopt adoptive moms move everywhere in the world, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

This has been lovely. Thank you so much. I'm glad we finally got this one on the books that made happen. Um sometime thanks for having us, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

Yes, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

We're excited to move this into the world, and so any opportunity we get to talk about it, we really are so grateful.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Yeah, I love it. I love it. So thank you so much, my friends. Take care, take care.