Episode 15: Amber Venner

Perimenopause, Postpartum & the Need for Community Support

Description:

In this episode, Sara and Amber explore the realities of perimenopause and the broader context of women’s life transitions.

They discuss:

• the lack of awareness and education around perimenopause
• how symptoms can overlap with anxiety and depression
• the parallels between perimenopause, postpartum, and other hormonal shifts
• the absence of cultural rituals and community support for women

The conversation also expands into:

• midlife representation and evolving beauty standards
• the importance of female friendships and support systems
• shifting gender roles and the role of men in supporting women
• modern parenting and the impact of technology

This episode offers an honest and nuanced look at the challenges women face in midlife—and the importance of rebuilding supportive, community-based care models.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Hello and welcome to the Woven Podcast. I'm Sarah Newberry, your host, and today I'm really excited for my guest Amber to join us. And I feel like it's important to note that we've never talked before in um real life. And uh or even over Zoom, because is that real life? Um, but we met via a podcasting group on Facebook, and we sort of like clicked right away. I feel like maybe that's just my own opinion, but um, I feel like we we sort of jived on a lot of things. So uh we started sending voice notes back and forth, and um so I think this conversation is gonna be juicy. So, Amber, tell uh the people listening a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Hi, Sarah, and I totally agree with you. I'm just even looking at you now, I see your glasses and your nose ring and your tattoos, and I'm just like, yep, we're similar, we're similar for sure. So, yeah, my name's Amber, and I am deep in um perimenopause. Hard. I'm a nurse, and I recognize that I didn't know what was happening to me, and I realized that there's no way I'm in this alone. So I started talking about it. And then I had a lot of women, even some men, coming to me saying, like, this is what I'm going through. I don't know if that's real, or I don't know if I should trust these feelings, I don't know what's happening to me, things like that. So I just started, I figured I'm gonna talk to people and I'm gonna help them sort out, you know, are these my hormones that are telling me that I need to quit my job because it's the worst and I'm miserable, and or you know, are these my hormones that I just don't like my husband anymore? Or things like that, right? So I help women be able to identify, you know, what's reality and what could possibly be your hormones, and talk through it. It's talk, it's talk, it's not fixing, it's not therapy, it's talk. I find myself, I'm not a surface person, so I will ask hard questions and I will ask deep questions, and people I think need that and want that, but there's a lot of shame in you know how people are feeling at a certain time or what they're feeling, you know, badly about. So I started, you know, we signed confidentiality agreements and I share experiences as well, and I validate these people, right? So that just took off and I started my Instagram page to be real and raw about perimenopause because as much as it's supposed to be this empowering woman journey, like coming out, it's the hardest time in my life. And I knew other people would probably be feeling the same. And I was like, I'm gonna talk about it, I'm gonna be loud about it because I I needed it too. I needed it too.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Yeah, I love that. I think that um someone was just saying to me earlier today, like, what a timeline to be here, you know, with everything that's going on in the world. And I think that the times that we're living in, we're craving the depth, you know, we're craving that like deep conversations. I I too am not a surface person. I like can't do the weather conversations, it makes me feel like a robot. Um, and we have enough robots going on in the world, so which is you know, I do think we're gonna come around here, right? So, like the more robots we've we get, the more we're gonna find our humanity and like our humanness. I I mean that's my hope. Yeah, exactly. But I but I hear you on the depth, and I also hear you on the perimenopause. Um, it took it took a little time to determine whether or not perimenopause was actually happening for me because I'm still a little on the young side, in my opinion, even though they're the ages that they're saying now is like much younger, which my question is like, what's that about? Um and then whenever it was like determined, yes, this is perimenopause, I felt this relief of like, okay, I'm not dying. Because there for a little while I felt like I was dying.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Yeah, what is happening to me? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah. And a lot of women are feeling that way. And a lot of women, you know, they'll Google early dementia or um, you know, myself, I'm I'm a nurse. I've had, you know, before I was in public health, I worked over 10 years in mental health. So I was looking at it like, oh, I might need to go get assessed because I am not myself and what is happening. So until I went down a big research rabbit hole, I wondered if, you know, I needed a mental health assessment. And I know a lot of people feel that way because we don't know anything about this. And just like you said, the economy, just the world we're living in right now, that is heavy and that is stressful. And our bodies cannot take it. Our brains aren't meant to take this much information and try to deal with it on top of our real lives, right? It's it's been quite a heavy, I'd say, just over a year where I've started, you know, really learning about this stuff. It's been a very heavy year, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Yeah, well, and I feel like, you know, our parents never talked about it either. Like I never heard my mom talking about this. I never heard my grandma talking about this. And it makes me wonder, you know, I'm sure that they went through their own experiences, but I also wonder if um is the stress, is the environment, is the timeline part of like what's making it more heavy. You know, there's in other episodes I've talked about how just mothering is like different today because we're constantly being pinged with news and like everything. So it's like I'm sure that our bodies are responding to just the overwhelm.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

It's true, yeah. So I did some research on that because I thought, well, how did all these generations before us get through this? No problem. They really didn't, they sucked it up. Um, they you know, I asked my mom about it, and she she was very, well, yeah, I remember. And I was like, well, you didn't tell me. So she went for an assessment. I learned after. So she still is not sure if that was perimenopause because she's never even heard of it, right? But in uh early 40s, that's what happened with my mom. But um we carry this generation of parenting, there's a lot of pressure on us, and like we've said, not to mention the state of the world and our cortisol, it it's messy. So we just can't, we just can't handle it anymore. And the stress that women carry these days is a lot heavier than the stress women carried 30 years ago, and it's not invalidating their experiences because they couldn't talk about it, they didn't talk about it, right? Because they had nowhere to reach to find out what is happening to me. So they stayed quiet about it because they thought they were alone in it, right? So I'm finding that now that we are talking so much more about it, that women are going, oh, that's me too. Okay, okay, yeah, I'm not alone in this, and it's happening like everyone our age. How old are you, Sarah?

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Um, I just turned 40. Well, I keep saying that. I'm gonna be 41 next month. I didn't just turn 40.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

And you can keep saying that if you want. I mean, yeah. So I mean, you're at a fairly normal age to start seeing heavy symptoms of perimenopause. And like I I turned 43 in November, so I'll be 44 this year, which I also told my friend I'll be 43 this year. So it we start losing track of time. And I would say just after I turned 42 is when it just hit, like it just hit and it hit hard. I didn't slowly go into this. I felt like it just one day hit, and so some people will go into it slowly, some people it will hit, some people it'll wait till you know you're 47, some people they'll start having symptoms at 35. It all just depends on crazy and you can't look at a blood test and say, Oh, yeah, well, you're in perimetopause. It all has to do with symptoms, and everyone's symptoms vary.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

So it's harder like everything is a symptom, you know, almost not everything, but like a lot of those the symptoms are wide and vast.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah, there's like 104, I think, of symptoms that have been documented as perimenopausal symptoms. That's a lot, and not everybody is gonna have all of them. You know, some people are gonna have 40, some people are gonna have two. You know, right, and some people will experience it sooner, some people will experience it way later. It's this whole wild journey that healthcare providers are just barely learning about now, because they are taught, okay, so you go in and you say, My I'm anxious, I'm anxious. I cannot understand why, I can't identify why all of a sudden I'm so anxious. And when you when you try to assess somebody for these signs and symptoms, yes, you're anxious. So what are we gonna do about it? We're gonna medicate you to help you deal with this, right? And that can be totally real as well. You could not be dealing with perimenopause symptoms, you could be dealing with heavy anxiety or depression. So it's really hard to distinguish the differences, right? So if it's this whole set of symptoms along with uh anxiety and depression, then yeah, maybe it could be perimenopausal, but it could not be either. So it's really hard to distinguish, you know, what it is. And doctors are trained to go with oh, that sounds like anxiety. I think we should medicate SSRIs are great too. So it's and we're just learning.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

So it's you know, it's funny because it's not funny, but I don't know. It's it is what it is. But um, I work with a lot of mothers and mothers in pregnancy and postpartum. And what I'm what I'm starting, I mean, just out of how many conversations I've had with my clients, is that you know, we have this sort of cultural notion that you can have babies later, right? Like you can have your career first and then you can go have babies. And um so it whenever I start seeing someone in their 30s, which is crazy because that's still a baby, you know, like that's still little, like they're young, okay. Um and if I see a mom having a baby at like 32, 35, 36, 38, I start asking about perimenopause. Yeah, because I feel like there's a lot of postpartum symptoms that also look like perimenopause. And I also think that both of those experiences, postpartum and perimenopause, are a hormone cascade of chaos.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, yeah, they are. They really are.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

So it's like we need to be having these conversations, like, yes, wait as long as you want to to have babies, but also know that like XYZ could be your experience.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

This could be your possible possibility, right? With geriatric pregnancies. That could absolutely, it's a really great point, Sarah. Is that you know, you're having these, you know, you have your baby and all of a sudden your estrogen just plummets, right? Because you have so much estrogen while you're pregnant. But then your perimenopause symptoms may come in and then it's gonna start going like this, and it's very, very confusing. So your hormones are really messy after you have a baby, and you're trying to deal with that, but then you could run into other hormones with perimenopause that are going to mess with you.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

So you were saying, like, we can't necessarily do a blood test to be like, okay, you're in perimenopause. That's not how this works. Right. So you know, it really becomes a conundrum. And I don't know the answer, but I do need more conversation. And I I also think to bring in a cultural piece of this, right, is that perimenopause is an initiation, it's a it's like a rite of passage, much like menarch or or uh puberty having your period. Yeah, yeah. Um, and our culture has sort of lost touch with those things as well, like those rites of passage. Um, even just like celebrating the fact that you've moved through something new, um, could be a way of supporting that, right? Uh, even if it's like, like um, for example, when a when a person has a baby, they might have a baby shower, because that's like what our culture sort of does. And then then there's this thing called a blessing way, which I facilitate for people, and it's this beautiful spiritual kind of experience for to honor the mother, it's not about the baby, right? And that's a cultural initiation that that helps you process the new identity or the rite of passage or the initiation that you're moving through.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Beautiful. I've never heard that. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

And that that it's just a it's like a communal way to like lift up the mother. But what I'm wondering is, is like as we move through this postpartum period and with little time to like rest in that whole experience, and then here comes perimenopause with no cultural anchoring into a communal way of processing.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

No, and so so we can like we can throw medication and like um remedies or whatever you want to do at the thing, but if we're still not anchoring in like a communal rite of passage, like there's still there's still more ways to support.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

And you think that there's something wrong with you, right? Like you would you would assume that you aren't doing a good job because after you have the baby, that's it. You're thrown to the wolves. You are, it's so true. Yes, and I like after my first child, he's 14 now. We were in hospital, I think, for five days because it was a it was a heavy birth, it was heavy, and I didn't know anything about hormones after delivering a baby. I didn't know anything about breastfeeding, I just assumed everything was lovely. Apparently, I starved my baby for two weeks because I was very sick, so my body was fighting an infection, but I didn't know. Right. So, and then when I had my daughter, she's eight, I went with a midwife this time. What a what an ex what a different experience. They came and checked up on me for six weeks, and that I I tell everyone, I'm like, having that is the most beautiful thing. And I know some cultures they have like their their mother-in-laws or their mothers come in and take care of mom. Take care, and that's beautiful for us. Like, no, it's just good luck. But having that midwife support taught me so much and helped me go through those transitions where you're bawling your face off sitting there with a baby on your boob alone. Like that's normal because of your hormones. But if you're not informed of these things, you think you're doing a bad job as a mom. Because that's not what you were ever told. It's a beautiful thing and everything's lovely, but it's a hard, it's a hard place to be in.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Yes. And I mean, I know that it sounds like your first birth was challenging, but what a gift to be able to see the stark difference between like a medical um birth and everything and then a midwife care. Um, because yeah, I mean, I definitely remember going home and and being like, wait, you're gonna let me go home with this baby. I mean, and I dreamed of having children my whole life. Like, that's all I ever wanted to do was have children. And so you would think I would have felt confident and ready and prepared because I'd been wanting this my whole life. And then being home and being like, okay, now where's everyone?

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Um, how do I bathe this baby?

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Yeah, yeah. Right? You think you think like the maternal instinct will just kick in like it downloads or something, but it's it's really not like that for majority of us, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

And like, yes, it's natural for the baby to go to the breast. Absolutely. That's that's normal, that's their instinct, they can smell it, and they but I don't I didn't know, and I'm a nurse, that breast milk is supposed to. I was just like squeezing a little tiny bit, and I'm like, I guess they just like suck it out. I don't know. Right and I also wasn't aware that because I had such a like because I was so sick and I was on antibiotics, it like my body wasn't prioritizing making breast milk. And so when I finally Oh yeah, go ahead. When I finally decided, okay, I can't, I I can't do this. I'm exhausted. The baby's crying constantly. We're getting formula. We got formula, and then this beautiful baby, and the guilt I had for not breastfeeding, too, right? But I I I felt like I had to or else I was gonna crash and burn. And then I learned years later what you know what breastfeeding is actually supposed to look like and how hard it is and how much work it takes, but no one tells you that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

No, oh, not enough people, even if you have heard it, it's not enough. You need to be reminded like daily, this is hard. Yeah. Um, you said something in there. Oh, oh, I was gonna say, you know, part of that too is that we're very isolated right now. And if we had like aunties and elders and grannies around to be like, oh yeah, I remember what this was like. You gotta squeeze the boob and stick it in there like this.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Up and out, yeah. Yeah, the shape of the baby's mouth, and all that matters. I know, yeah, because like the indigenous communities, we have a lot of indigenous people um surrounding my area, and you're right, the aunties come in and the elders come in, and they help you like roll into that role, to that motherhood role, and you have people to ask questions to, to talk to, to vent to. Because our partners are like, I don't, I don't know, do you want me to take the baby? Like, they don't know, they don't know either, right? So it's a big yeah, it is. It's a hard part about our um culture. It's just like women, these are your expectations in life. You go to school, you meet your person, you buy a house, you get married, you have kids, and then that's all. Good luck, good luck out there because there's no representation of midlife people or our age or anything anywhere. We have nothing besides our parents. And we didn't get to see much because they didn't talk about it or they they you know really shoved it down. So we didn't get to learn anything about what we're supposed to do at this age. Nothing. We just have to give it our best shot.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

I've been really seeing um more people talking about the I mean, obviously, the algorithm, algorithmic reality of myself. I see a lot of people talking about perimenopause in midlife, um, because that's what I'm interested in. But I also feel like there is a movement to include more bodies that are going through different stages. I mean, but I think it's gonna take some time for like our social experience and even like our media to catch up with that. Yep. I mean, I think I don't even I don't even want to talk about this, but like you know, all those things that are being released right now, the things. Um, I really think that that's letting us see that like this obsession with youth and this obsession with um beauty standards, beauty standards and like tiny bodies is it's like kind of gross. I mean it's really gross, but also like wait a second, we've ignored a whole set of people, midlife people who have real bodies, yeah, and who are told that they need to look like something else for some reason, yeah, and then we're hard on ourselves, and like I just think about uh I think about the potential of that, right? Like I think about what if people who were midlife with all of the things that change beauty standards in midlife became desirable. Talk about mental health change, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Well, the thing is is that a lot of the men that I speak to at my age, they do love a woman's body that it looks like a full woman's body. But when they were younger, they didn't have the permission to say that out loud. Exactly. I've seen this. No, we need we need men like you. We need men like you. Right? So sh please, like be there. Talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

I I told a story the other day, and my son, so he's in grade eight. And a couple years ago, um one of the moms said to me, Oh, all the boys think you're think you're hot. So I said to my son, I was like, Do your friends think I'm hot? He was like, Yes. I'm like, the boys are size inclusive, they're learning. So that was awesome. Because he's he just turned 14, but this was a couple years ago. So I'm like, okay, so I think our generation of moms, you're right, we're we're doing something, you know. I think that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

And I also wonder, based on like just you know, the little blurb we we talked about before we hit record, but like you're a person, I can tell you're a person who feels comfortable in your creative essence, and I think that's attractive.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

You know, maybe it's like nothing about bodies, but it's about like feeling who you are and your essence being like exhibited, you know, like being out there and being comfortable. And I mean, I I know in like culture from a cultural aspect too, it's like they talk about like in midlife conversations, they talk about that a lot. It's like, oh, we're downloading this new powerful version of ourselves, or like what was always there, now we just don't give a fuck and we're gonna talk about it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

And I do think that that's that's sexy, like exactly, and we're also there's with with men too, right? Like they're going through hormone shifts as well. So if you're a straight woman and you know, a straight man is attracted to you, at this age they have lost quite a bit of testosterone too, right? So that masculine, like I want this, I want femininity, and I want all, you know, that's falling as well. So men our age should mostly are, you know, because you know, there's still I watched a weird documentary last night, so um, are they still like they're learning that oh shit, like I'm actually attracted to this and this personality and this humor and this, you know, what do you call it where I brain fog, right? So my bre like my words don't always come down where it's like confidence, confidence, like you're the confidence in someone, right? But there's so many women that don't feel like they can be confident because they hate their bodies, because they're told to hate their bodies.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Well, and just hearing you talk made made me think about how men, women, everybody, all bodies have had this like download of what they should find attractive. Yes. And it sounds very limiting, you know. There's like a very limited, even from my perspective as a woman who you know typically is attracted to men, um, there's a certain like body type I want there that's that like the culture has told me is ideal, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Right, right. But do you find with women, like when you're seeing couples, how often do you see um, you know, like with a straight couple, you see how often do you see a man that's super, super, super ideally hot with a woman who isn't as societally hot? Right? Yes. But when you look at a male female and like another male female, um you see often women that are very attractive, who are with men that aren't or may not necessarily have that typical what's supposed to be hot thing. So like women, like we're ahead of the game. We realize because we need that connection, right? We realize that humor and uh you know the fact that you can speak emotionally to me is important, is important, right? And we learn that at a way younger age. That's what we want. But men also from the pressure of other men and media and all that stuff, they don't even they they are taught not to care about that, and some men can't get away from that. So it's it's so interesting when you see these little dynamics out there, right? About different relationships, even in like the the gay community, like with men, it's still like men, and my like my brother, he's gay, and his partner, like they tell me that being like you, your body has to be fit, like to be in like a super attractive person in the gay community. And so he's always like try trying to start a new diet, or wanting to worry about like I need to work out or things like that, right? And he's like in his late 40s, so it's interesting, it's still in that male, that male community, the the physical look of the bodies they think they need to look like that, still even at his age. But I asked him, like, do you care? He's like, Well, I don't want like someone that's you know completely gross to me or something. He's like, but I don't really care about like dad bods and stuff. He's like, but he's like, I used to. That's just like a perfect example of as you age, you know, trying to change that, but not everybody, not everybody will feel comfortable being able to say that stuff out loud.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Yeah. That's interesting to think about. Um this isn't like a new thought, but um, I was listening to one of my favorite podcasts, Diabolical Lies. Uh, that's the name of the podcast. And um, they were talking about how men actually are trying to be attractive to other men and not really for women. Yeah, and I think that's a fascinating concept. And I I see it now. Like now that I see it, I can't unsee it.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

And women are very similar. Women are very similar. Like men, they're not gonna, I don't think they notice your outfits changing constantly, but women do.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Yeah, yeah, I do think, well, and maybe I'm just being biased here, so I'll I'll own that if that's true. Um, but I do also feel like women have the capacity to be to care about their outfits for themselves, too. Like that creative aspect of like, my outfit looks great and I feel good in this outfit, you know, and that's enough for them.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yeah, you know what I love? So you see, like in different, I don't know, I see a lot of interviews or things like that where they're interviewing older women, older women, and their outfits are vibrant and they're loud, right? And their glasses are amazing, their hair is amazing, because they got to a point in their life where they're like, no, I'm dressing for me. And that's I love to see that. I love it, love it, love it. So I'm like, okay, there's a time where it really does happen where we're like, oh, I'm doing it for me now. In this age, we're just kind of realizing that we should do that, but still trying to iron out all our other responsibilities and trying to push those on other people.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Well, and I I also think this makes me feel good, okay. Like, I think um I as I can remember back in my life before I had children and before I was married and all that stuff, maiden energy, if you will, that I remember feeling like that will happen for me one day. I want that, and it'll happen for me one day. So that's great, right? That makes me think like the culture still holds the the wisdom of midlife in its consciousness somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, exactly. And I think we don't, I think our generation's doing way better at being able to recognize it because I think there was, I can't remember who did an interview, and they're like, Oh, if you could do one thing over again, what like what would you do? And it'd be like, I'd tell more people the yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. It just, you know, so us at this age, like we don't we don't want to stand for bullshit anymore. Like, we just don't, but we have so many responsibilities still that we can't just can't just toss them aside. So it's well, we're even more annoyed.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

Yeah, okay. So you just brought up something really profound too, is like the idea of responsibilities. And you know, if you're if you're cycle syncing, so if we're talking about like month to month, just managing your life to near where you are in your cycle, okay. We would we would be able to like flex and bend with responsibilities based on where we are, ovulation, uh, menstruating, and and that sort of thing. And that goes into postpartum too, where like you should be able to rest, you should be able to lay down and not worry about anything. And the same thing goes for like perimenopause and menopause, right? Is like there should be a way for your life to sort of like change to accommodate what is happening with you hormonally, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all those things.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

You can't, you just can't carry it anymore. Like your brain changes, like the the chemistry changes. You actually can't keep everything in your brain anymore. And it's hard to say, you know, say if you're married, to say to your partner, hey, I need support now. Like, because they don't get it either, they don't get it. We don't get it, and that's what they're trying to understand. And you also kind of feel like, you know, someone was like, just stop doing it, stop doing it all. And I'm like, I feel like I'm setting my family up for failure if I do that. Just one day say, Hey, I do everything around here and I carry everybody's emotions. I'm not doing it anymore. Because guilt is still a huge, huge feeling through perimenopause. And so, you know, if my my my child forgot his shoes because I'm like, I'm not gonna say anything, I'm not gonna say anything. Well, then he panics and then he calls from school and I bring him his shoes because I feel so bad and I feel like I set that up when I should have just reminded him. It's but the guilt, right? So I'm gonna try little things. I'm trying.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Yeah, well, our structure, like our culture, our yeah, our structure doesn't support the fact that you need to do things differently because we sort of romanticize the testosterone 24-hour cycle where you just can produce for the rest, you can produce every day the same amount until you're what retired at 65, which is not true anymore. But um, do you know it's like that's sort of the belief there, too, that yeah, you should you're the exact same person all throughout your life. Yeah, the exact same person. And we're not we we're not robots, okay, folks.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

And we our bodies physically change, like our chemical makeup changes. So it's actually not possible for us to remain the exact same and still carry that mental, that invisible load that we've always carried. We we we don't have the capacity anymore. And for women that don't know about like all the hormone shifts and changes, they're hard on themselves because they can't carry it anymore. And that causes resentment and that causes fighting. And if people don't know about it, they they they just get really hard on themselves. And I I hate to see that, I see it all the time. I still do it, I still do it, even though I know, because you just feel like you just can't be that mother, that partner that society has set us up to be, and you feel like it's getting everyone down.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

Yeah, exactly. And can you imagine if like a white man woke up one day and was like, Whoa, I do not, I cannot relate with what I used to know yesterday. Like everything would shift, but because women go through it, we're a lot of times suffering in silence because one, we don't there's statistics that show we won't be believed, right? Yeah, and and that um we're not talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

No, we're not, and that's why I really wanted to put my stuff out there because I've you know, a lot of the the you know the perimetopause community on like Instagram, it's a lot about how to manage eat right. You need to be eating this, you need to be doing this, you need to be exercising, you need to be lifting heavy, which that's all great, but it can be overwhelming. So women don't even know where to start. And I'm like, I know, I know what I'm supposed to do. I'll just throw that on my load, I'll throw that on my plate of things to do. But I'm like, I know, I want to talk about how shit this is. Not that, like, I I can go, you know, request HRT, I can go and try to hunt that kind of stuff down, and I will, I will, I know I will, but let's talk about how we're actually feeling, what's actually happening in our bodies, like that whole change. Like, let's talk about that, and let's talk about how much it sucks. There's it's supposed to be empowering, and it is, but we can't be hard on ourselves when we can't all of a sudden drop everything and just worry about ourselves now. Because that's what a lot of the the positive you know things are that are said about perimenopause. Like, you are for you now, you are for you. And I'm like, Yeah, sure, sure, but who's just gonna who's gonna make lunches? Who's gonna do all the other stuff?

SPEAKER_03 37:09

You know, that's that sounds like I mean, I know there's probably some nuance there, but it sounds like a lot of junky hyper-individualist stuff. Like, yeah, we do we are communal animals, we are creatures of the earth that commune together, okay?

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Commune, woman's commune. I talk about it all the time. Yes, I'm into it, right? Just as and you, but you know what? Because of our economy, too, right now. This is when I started thinking about it because women were coming to me saying, like, I think I need to leave, but I can't afford that. I can't afford to live on my own, especially to have a bedroom for my four children or something. Like, so I'm thinking, like, I think we're gonna see a shift in those living styles. You know, I think we're going to start seeing women living with women with their children.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Because okay, I I I have heard this, and I I'm actually in the process of possibly doing something similar in my life. Yeah. Um, and I so here's my question what are the men gonna do? I mean, I kind of don't care what they're gonna do, they're gonna figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Well, and I think that this is a part of our generation of women as well. It's like we're not sitting in silence anymore. You will recognize that you need us, and how you know what we do for men, like what women do for men, and that we need to be met here. And if you can't give that to us, guess what? Our girlfriends can, and there are plenty of toys out there that can cut off my fucking sexual needs, right? Yeah, you can leave, you can leave the commune if you want, go do your thing, go have sex, go date. But right, we need emotional connections, and we're at this age getting it from other women.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

I I have been saying that I feel like the universe is asking men, I mean asking all of us, but especially men, to step up into their divine masculine, but also their their divine self so that they so that they can meet us. Not that we're like superior in some spiritual way, but we are connected to the womb. You know, we are we're connected to the dirt, you know?

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I I love that you brought that up because men are I'm so sorry. I don't, I'm not, we're not man-bashing, but like this is all the this is all what women are now seeing at this age. The veil has lifted, right? So it's not a man-bash because they are doing what they think they're supposed to do too, right? That's what they've been told. But men have always been, they're the protectors, right? They are the the gatherers, the like they protect their families. That's what men are supposed to do. The brave ones, the ones that take care of that. They still think they are, but they're not doing that. Right. Moms of women are.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

I think that's a very important like piece of the conversation that's missing. Yeah. But like they think they are, but I'm like, how? Like, show me how. Tell me the story of how. Exactly. I mean, I guess I guess if I want to think about it, like, okay, I'm processing in the moment here, so I might be totally off base, but you know, there was a time, not even that long ago, possibly, maybe one generation or two back, where maybe men really did have to protect, like with force, right? Like we had to protect against bears or something. I don't know. Exactly. And they're not now they're not getting that opportunity, they're like sitting at a in a cubicle. And that that has to feel in their systems, nervous system, their bodies, uh incongruent in some ways.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

You would you would think that, yeah, but it's not showing very obviously. Like it's not, it's not being recognized. And like you said, where are the men? Why are they not standing up for their women and their daughters and their mothers? Where are they? Where are they right now? We need your voices. Like, you don't want the matriarchy, then step the fuck up, or else we're gonna step on you because you don't give a shit about us, you know. So that I get really like it's a thing, it's a thing.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

It's right. I I am here for that fire because I mean, I I think if I like pull back, right? We're in a moment of transition, and so we can't really know like what's gonna happen. And so I'm holding all the open space for men to rise up and show me um what that means for them.

unknown 41:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

And and I also want to say that I'm using the the binary terms like men, women, because that is the group uh of which I am in.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Um and so I know that there's way more nuance to the conversation than what we're having here with perimenopause too, because you're always looking at the the heterosexual marriage type thing, right? But I was talking to a trans man who when he went on hormonal things to to transition, he was getting hit with all the perimenopause symptoms.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

I can't imagine that who knew that, and like he was like, I was very alone in that, you know, so it's it's bizarre, and and like I I hope my hope is that there are spaces dedicated to those conversations because just like we need these conversations, they need those conversations maybe even more than us.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

I don't know, but like maybe I'll inquire. I'm gonna ask, actually.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Yeah, because um so my point is is like I'm using these binary terms, but I know that there's way more nuance to this. So I just want to say that. Thanks for speaking up. With that being said, like, you know, we're asking for men to show up and and the whole world has shifted where you know, like I um they're building something in front of my house, and so I got all these cr construction guys right outside my house. Like, hello. Um but like you know, there's there is that as like an option for men, but many men end up like in an office, in a cubicle, and typing on a computer, making data code or something. I don't know. Um and it makes me wonder, like, yeah, how are you expressing your are you are you not angry about this?

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Right. I said to my I said to my husband, I said, you know, women are very mad at men right now. And he tried to all men me, which not all men me, which that's a whole other thing. But I said, like, but everything I'm seeing right now is women standing up, women, women, women. He's like, that's because your algorithm, and I'm like, is it though? Is it though true, but why aren't I just seeing advocacy, period? Right, right, like, and I do I do get some men in my algorithm, but it's 98% women standing up.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Well, and and I would love, okay, I would love for a man to listen to this and say, I'm doing this, I'm advocating, and this is how, like, because like I said, I'm holding all the open space for that. Like, I want that to be real and true. So bring it to me.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

You know, like the poor the hockey boys, right? Like whatever happened there. Yes, I was thinking about that too. They don't they didn't even realize, right? They were just going along with the other men, and right now, with the climate of what's happening, no one stood up.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

Well, and it's it's it's like um I was talking to a man a couple weeks ago about the files being released, and I said, You need to read them. And he was like, No, it's so disgusting, it's so gross. And I was like, You need to read them because you need to understand why the release of these things and hearing all these stories has not surprised any woman I know.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Nope. Yeah, and me having to say that to men too. Even if a woman just just has sex with a guy to get out of the situation that they're in. Like, I that is a that is like yes, we're too kind, like we're nice, and we just don't want to like we don't want to ruffle feathers and you're uncomfortable. And like so many of my friends relate to this. Like, I just needed to fuck to get so I could get out of there because I didn't want to be there anymore. Like, that's a big form of like sexual abuse when you're getting that pressure and pressure and pressure and pressure, and they're not taking no. And yes, maybe some of them should have punched them in the face and ran away. But women are told that they are soft and they should be soft, so we just you know get it over with and then get out of there.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

Like so many, but then with no support on how to process the thing that just happened, you know, like well, because you have you did it.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

You yeah, you did it, you didn't you didn't know enough left.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

You could have just left. You could have said no. Well, I did. Well, did you though enough? I know, I know like so many women have been in so many situations, but maybe not full-on rape, which is fucking horrible, but many where they felt sexually exploited. And it's just like, oh, because it wasn't you know a really bad rape situation, ours don't count. Like we women are like men need to see that so many women, most of them, all of them, have had experiences uh like with sexual assault in some way. And how do they not hear that? You know, yes the documentary I sorry, the documentary I watched last night was on that whole man, what's the whole man influencer not caring about women, trad wife, manscaping, not manscaping, I know that's like pubing, but like the manosphere. Manosphere, thank you. Um I also have no shame in my word loss because that's just yeah who I am right now.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

Um yeah, and I was just like I I you know, I'm raising two boys and I care deeply about this topic, about men, about masculine, about men's liberation, all those movements. I care and I follow it, try to follow it as closely as I can because I need to know what they're consuming, but I also need to know like what's good and what's like not good work, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

And how are they processing what they're consuming?

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Um you recognize that this is bullshit, right? Right, right, and the amount of people, boys that would come up to these to these like influencers when they were out in the community. Oh, he's my biggest, I'm his biggest fan. I just love what he does, and you know, to man up and we need to take care and saying that like women don't women say that they want to be out and independent, but no, women want a man to to rule them and take care of them. And they're just young. 26% of Gen Z in the United States believe in like trad wifing. 26% of age they think that a woman should it was higher when it was like a world study, but I really I read the world study, and then I'm like, I can't compare it to all these different cultures, right? So I couldn't find anything on Canada because I'm Canadian, so I go to my brother, the states, and 26%.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

That's crazy. I didn't realize that it was that high. I was really hoping for like two percent.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Yeah, no, right? 26.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Oh well so uh like I want to go back to something that you just said that made me think about something else. These things that happened to us, like these uh sexual boundary violations and things like that. You know, perimenopause, if we were fully supported, if we really had access to like less responsibility, maybe drugs, maybe hormones, maybe um, I don't know, movement, you know, even just like talk support, talk like just yes, like I I'm gonna sleep whenever I'm tired, I'm gonna move whenever my body requires that, like that kind of support. You know, like I I had sort of mentioned this earlier, but like perimenopause sort of mirrors menarchy. And if we think about the spiral, right? We we head up, we sometimes travel on the spiral, and when it comes back around, we have this possibility. There's a possibility there to move through the healing of something, right? And like I had a friend recently telling me about a story, she's going through a hard time. It was really like rubbing up against something that happened to her like 15 years ago. And I was like, yeah, exactly. And I was like, let it come, let it come out. Because if you try to push that away, it you're I mean, it's brilliant. She was even noticing that those two things were rubbing up against each other, right? But then for it to be like, okay, you're on the spiral, let that stuff that that terrible shit that happened to you, like let perimenopause br come in and do its work, you know. That's a great and that work could could happen if we were fully supported in all the ways.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Big time. I know. We it really, really could. And like we've talked about that whole the estrogen veil. So the things that we were able to keep hidden, keep soft, yes, can't keep it like that anymore. So the littlest of things could trigger something in you that could be extremely detrimental, and we don't know how to manage it because we don't have the support. And I'm lucky where I'm surrounded by a really good group of girlfriends. I have like five solid, incredible women in my life that I've had for years and years and years. Not everybody has that, right? Like, you know, and that's another thing too. It's like, oh, lean on your friends during parametapolic. What if I don't have the girlfriends? Because there's lots of women like that too.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

Yeah, the woman, the woman wound, the like the woman wound. That's real. I mean, I was talking to someone yesterday, and she was like, All my friends are men, and I just really get along with men a lot better. And I was like, ooh, I relate with that. Like a younger version of me was like that, but I am like surrounded by women right now, and I feel supported by that. I feel um, yeah, I don't really want to hang out with men, to be really honest.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Yeah, and like I love, like you said, I love men.

SPEAKER_03 52:44

I love men.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

I do, yeah. Right now I'm trying to figure out what the fuck is going on in my body, in my soul, in my head. Yes, men aren't they don't they don't get it, they don't understand it. Like again, we hardly do. Right. So they are it's very hard for them, so you need to go.

SPEAKER_03 53:01

Yeah, it almost feels like this time, this perimenopause time requires women for me. Yeah, you know, where it's like, ooh, I I mean I can go and you know, go to dinner with like a bunch of people where men are at, or something like that, and I can contain myself.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're cute.

SPEAKER_03 53:21

You can you can flirt and whatever, but but you know, like my best friend is having a slumber party for her birthday next week. And I am just like, yes, I want to go in my pajamas. We're having mocktails, and like it's gonna get it's like we're all just gonna be raw and real and moist and dirty, and I like it.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

The odd time when I go out with my friends, they'll be like, Where's Amber? I guarantee I'm in the bathroom with talking to women. That is where my friends will always find me if I am anywhere. I could be at a a concert, I could be out, you know, having dinner. I'm always found in the bathrooms with women supporting women, pulling out steep stuff that women need. Always. That's where I end up. I'm going out so I can go into the bathroom. Like that's and I love I love it. I don't have desire. Like I've got my husband at home and my family. I don't, I don't want to talk to boys unless I'm unless you want to hear about women right now. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

And I think that's just like I think that's a time. I mean, it wasn't always like that for me, right? And it probably won't always be like this. It just is like a time right now. It is and that's okay. Like again, it goes back to those cycles. Like, we're not 24-hour testosterone cycle robots. Yeah, we actually live on a bigger timeline, a bigger cycle, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Of changes, and you know, also the men like our partners trying to understand, and women needing more when it comes to like sexual experiences and us not even knowing about that. Why can't why don't I want to fuck my husband anymore? But men having to learn a whole new way of turning on a woman, and that's confusing because they just assume, you know, oh, I need lube. Well, what you're not turned on by me? It's like, no, I'm old and all my orifices are drying up. It's got nothing to do with that. I don't want to tear, I don't want to get all micro-teared because things are so complex. You know, like there's so much learning for all sexes about this stuff. And I'm really happy that you know, people like us, Sarah, are speaking loud about it because we're gonna help our children's generation. And as mothers, look at us. Look at us.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 55:53

We're doing a good job. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:55

I mean, I think wouldn't that be like the overall message that I would love for every woman to understand is that this is a process, and you're in the process right now, and it won't always be like this. I don't know what it's like on the other side. You still have some access to what it was before that, but like we're we're in it right now, we're kind of like in the trenches, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

I'm hoping that you know my first year has been really hard. But my my partner has been making strides about learning, so he is supporting me. I don't, you know, something like a dirty kitchen isn't really triggering to me. It gets me like super wound up. I never used to give a shit before, but now he's recognizing oh, if I take five minutes to clean this kitchen before Amber gets home, like why wouldn't I do that for her? Smart man. Yeah, but I mean, he I it had to be like you need, I had to push and push and push because I'm like, we you need to make some shifts here because I am shifting and I can't do this alone anymore, and I don't want to be a statistic. So learn.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

Well, and I I also think there's a perspective shift that's like, you know, isn't that exciting? Like, isn't it exciting to kind of like do you know, you could get into the monotony of like 30 years of marriage and we do the same thing every day, or we can't be like this generation, or we could be like, hey, things are shifting, let's ride this wild ride together.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Totally, totally, exactly. And I, you know, you it's funny you brought up that 30-year thing because there's so much pressure, like societal pressure on long-term relationships are the ones you need to strive for. All uh all people before us did it. I was like, women didn't have a choice, women couldn't even have a bank account until the 80s or whatever, right? Right. But now women have that choice. And I know a lot of people still look at it as long-term is the ultimate goal, but I'm looking at it now going, no, if you can get more somewhere else, you're gonna be a better person, a stronger person if you meet someone now that meets you that may not be the person you were with at 20, and that's okay because you're different people. You know, and if you can grow together, awesome, do it like that. Great. But it's also okay to find someone else that's maybe on your on your wavelength. You know, there's a lot of stigma around divorce and separation, and that you're a single woman is not worthy and all that, and it's we're changing it and slowly, but we're gonna be we're gonna be when we're 98 because of modern medicine, we're gonna live that long. We're gonna be like, look at us, let's look at us now. We are independent women, we've made a change.

SPEAKER_03 59:06

Yes, yes. I hope. I hope so too. I'm here to live to 98, that would be cool, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I hope like with modern medicine. I asked my son, I'm like, with modern medicine, like how long do you think uh your dad and I are gonna live? And he was like thinking about it, and he's like, probably till 120. And I was like, okay, I'm like, but uh are our bodies super fragile? And he's like, Yes, he's like, but the process will be slower, it'll be a slower process because we have um medication and things that we can put in our bodies that will expand the lives of our internal organs or our bones or things like that. I just love his thoughts on life, so I always ask him, he's a small thing.

SPEAKER_03 59:52

Absolutely. I know these kids teach us just as much as we teach them.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

They also teach us that he's 14, he's doing what 14-year-olds do. Yeah, I my baby, my baby.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

You know, I I my oldest is 12, and I have a few parents in my life that have boys at that like 14, 15, and I'm like, Yeah, but when you have to leave condoms, you're like, oh, well, I know what I was doing at 14, so of course, but yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

But I'm like, I'm way more talk to me, talk to me. He doesn't, yeah. Yes. You know, I think as like you said with parenting earlier in the show here, we are so much more accepting, understanding, we are so much more human than we ever thought our parents were. We apologize. We apologize, we are real, and I hope that we're not making like spoiled children. You know, people are saying, like, oh, the work ethic of young people sucks up, but well, I I still think we're gonna transition with that too, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:58

Because what's really happening is the work ethic thing is like they're also just not putting up with the shit that we did.

unknown 1:01:06

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

You know, they're like, actually, I deserve better than this.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

Yeah, that's part of my job description. I'm not doing that, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:11

Yeah, you're right, yeah. You know, I also think it's worth talking, like a really tangible example of what we're talking about, verse and bringing back in the spiral that we were talking about is like, you know, a lot of people talk about parenting and children and raising children is so triggering. That's the word that a lot of people use. It's like, oh, I'm bringing the past up, and like, yeah, um, it's triggers this trauma, and but you know, I have to tell you this story real quick about something that was really healing. And you know, my my son, okay, I shouldn't give too many information because I don't know what he would want me to share, but yeah, yeah, I know he's got like a little crush. Okay, we'll say that he's got a little crush, and he has been coming to me talking to me about like how to handle it, and I am just like oh my god, if you want to post, come on in, come on up, talk to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:13

That has been so reparative for my own experience because when I was young and I had a first crush, and I'm trying to talk to my mom about it, and my mom's like, I don't know how to talk to you about this. Totally was like harmful. I mean, like, you know, it was a little thing, but it was harmful. And it was just like, I don't know, parents of the 80s and 90s just didn't know really how to handle stuff like that, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

No, they were like the first generation of parents that were learning to do things for themselves in a way, too. So they were doing their own thing half the time. Like they were divorcing for real, and they were trying to hang out with friends and they were going through addiction issues. Like, it's such a it's such a wild thing to notice something like that. Yes. They weren't they weren't living for their kids, most of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:58

And I think I think so. When he brings up these things to me, and I think to myself, like, what would have I wished my parents could have said or done? Or like, yeah, it's like, wow, there's this almost like um, what's that called? You know, brain fog thing. Um inner child work that happens with this, where it's like I get to really parent him, but I'm also like reparenting that little version of me. Meanwhile, also asking, like, is this helpful? Because I don't want to create like another cycle of shit, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

So exactly, like you don't want to pour your shit on them, but yes, exactly. I need it at that age. So do can I help you here? And if it's not what you need, let's move on somewhere else.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:46

But yes, totally. I think that question is really powerful. Like, is this helpful? Is this productive? Is this like you know, do you feel good about this or whatever? Because all this like inner child work that I'm talking about is not happening. I mean, it is sort of happening in the moment, but it's more like leaving and being like, holy shit, that was an amazing conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:06

Reflecting on it, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:08

And like that's the where the inner child work happens, right? Yeah, so we have that opportunity to ride that spiral again, right? And see that um there's opportunity all around to like go back and heal something. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

But I tell my I asked my friends, like, when did you recognize your parents were human? Ooh, yeah, right. And I I'd say like my early 20s when I was like, oh, they're just human. Of course they did this, or of course they did that, or of course, you know, during this time I felt like I was not being chosen because they were going through this. It sucks for a girl, but it's also being able to recognize like they're human, they have human experiences, they're not just my parent and they don't know all. And I think our kids recognize it way sooner.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

Oh, yeah, because I'm always like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Yeah, so I don't know. I drop the F-bomb weights at like way too much, and I lose my shit, and then I'll be like, I'll apologize.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

And I'll say, like, that was really shitty of me. Like, I lost myself and I couldn't I couldn't get back to it in the time, and I'm really sorry that you got that wrath, right? Yeah, my kids do that too.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:20

Yeah, my kids get to hear me say, uh, ooh, I uh I didn't like the way I just responded.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:26

Let me try that one again.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:28

I'm human. I lost it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

Reacted, you know, we didn't we didn't get that growing up, most of us anyway, right? No, no. So we're doing a good job, I think, Sarah. We're doing a good job while trying to manage all of our own shit. Yeah, I think we're doing okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:44

Yeah. Which to bring this full circle and kind of to a close is like we talked about how you know, perimenopause, we have a lot more stress. We're we're like constantly pinged with news, horrific news, right in seconds, right? You know, we saw like people dying and stuff right away, and that's tragic, but being so connected virtually also allows for conversations like this, and it also allows for us to see different ways, and that stay gray the trends, the parenting trends, like we get to see some of that more in real time, and yeah, there's there's some value to that, so we just need to be discerning and mindful about exactly like seeing friends that you grew up with that you may don't maybe don't have as much access to anymore, but you still love each other, and then you get to see their kids grow up and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

There are so many benefits. You're right, yeah, but with everything, you have to find a balance, right? And yes, this is interesting. Another thing about our parenting is teaching our children this balance that we don't even know how to balance and talking to them about all these things because their mind, yeah, their minds, they're gonna be different, their experiences are gonna be different. People are like, Oh, they're on screens too much. And I'm like, this is the future, this is what's happening. Like so we gotta learn all about that as analog children. Well, right, you know, we're doing our best. It's a challenge.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:10

Well, this was absolutely delightful. I had a That it would be. Um, and I will definitely put all of your contact information in the show notes and try to go back and see what we talked about and put that stuff in there too. And um yeah, if if anyone feels compelled to reach out to Amber, I highly encourage that. And um until next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Bye, thanks.